Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!
Be part of us as we welcome Joshua Kozak of HASfit and Loodo. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.
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Transcript:
Episode 3 – Joshua Kozak
Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that may revolutionize the way in which the world will play sports activities, work out and get match along with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR health club and convey many years of expertise from creating a number of the largest health expertise firms on the earth.
They’re bringing collectively the perfect and brightest minds that will help you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.
Right now now we have a digital health trade pioneer, Josh Kozak. Josh, thanks for being right here.
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, it’s a pleasure, honored, particularly being an early visitor. We’ll look again on this in a pair years from now and this will probably be bragging rights.
Preston Lewis: Heck yeah, man. Made it.
Ryan DeLuca: That’s proper. Yeah. Think about being one of many first Joe Rogan friends? That’s gotta be fairly cool.
Joshua Kozak: There we go.
Preston Lewis: So,simply to kick it off, why don’t you simply give our viewers slightly fast intro into who you’re and inform me slightly bit about your background?
Thanks Preston. As you mentioned, my identify is Joshua Kozak. I’ve been [00:01:00] within the well being and health trade for twenty years now. however, uh, , within the final thriteen years or so, strictly on the digital facet. I used to be early to train streaming again when your major choices have been DVDs.
We began streaming again in like 2010, 2011. That’s led to over a billion exercises streamed over the past decade. After which in 2014 we have been early companions with Android Put on and Apple Watch, and began constructing good watch apps, leveraging the movement sensors and the apps to launch a set of apps that would observe human motion from sleeping to train, et cetera.
That resulted in acquisition affords from three of the highest 4 good watch producers on the time. After which most just lately, in 2018, partnered with a big healthcare firm to begin a healthcare slash wellness slash health firm. Type of the convergence of therapeutic train in healthcare.
Joshua Kozak: And, we offered that in January 2021, and now I’mlooking in the direction of the subsequent [00:02:00] frontier, which is why I’m right here becoming a member of y’all.
Ryan DeLuca: You’ve been in so many alternative components of health and expertise and utilizing completely different applied sciences, it’s simply superb while you hear like a billion exercises served. So a billion coach Kozaks on the market. Many exercises.
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, I do know. It’s form of bizarre, particularly as a result of it’s like I don’t get to see them head to head. So it’s all simply shot in a studio with only a couple folks standing there. It’s probably not till I am going out into the true world and get the privilege of assembly some folks which are following the exercises, that it turns into actual.
Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, little doubt.
Preston Lewis: All of your followers.
Inform us extra about HASfit, so slightly bit extra about, what’s it? How’d you begin it? Why’d you begin it?
Joshua Kozak: Effectively, because of HASfit, I’m formally like an E-list movie star, I feel slightly longer and I’d qualify for Dancing With the Stars.
I’d be out within the first spherical, I can inform you that a lot. You already know, with HASfit, we’ve delivered full size dwelling exercise movies and we’ve all the time used YouTube as a high of funnel. So folks discover us through YouTube after which they transfer downstream to our personal merchandise, which is our cell apps, our good TV apps and our web site.
We actually serve nearly each demographic [00:03:00] and modality you may consider.
And so people who don’t know, it’s mainly streaming exercises with Josh. And your spouse, proper?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, my spouse and I, we lead ’em collectively. I acquired began by myself. So really earlier than I met her. Um, and it’s humorous, the viewers was like ninety p.c male at the moment, proper?
After which I introduced on her and it was like the proper ying and yang mixture. And now we’re like fifty-fifty, and it simply makes the whole lot higher and simpler.
Preston Lewis: That’s so cool.
Ryan DeLuca: So superior. So, inform us slightly bit extra about what you realized. Such as you clearly, such as you mentioned, you don’t see straight the folks which are doing the exercises, however I’m positive you get numerous suggestions.
What kind of suggestions do you get? What have you ever realized in regards to the health client by means of these streaming providers?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, so much, nevertheless it’s solely a thirty minute podcast, so I’m gonna attempt to hold it quick. I’m gonna attempt to hold it quick and candy. one of many greatest advantages that now we have is basically simply the connection that we’ve been in a position to construct with the viewers, in that, they actually recognize seemingly having us being of their front room. It’s one of many greatest add-ons that now we have. We attempt onerous to be personable and actual,and never like a faux character placing on a present, however any person’s like “Oh, my legs are literally burning too.”
Like, “Oh, that is [00:04:00] really onerous for me.” Like, “Oh, shoot, I simply sprained my hamstring in the course of the shot.” Or no matter. So, simply being actual and real. However then, I feel the opposite factor, too, simply understanding thatso many individuals have limitations which are getting of their means from exercising. And that could possibly be issues like, full-time jobs and tasks with children, to bodily illnesses, et cetera. So, , we wanna stay on this world the place we really feel like, “Oh, all you gotta do is as straightforward as stepping on the market and hitting the play button.”
However, everyone has all of this stuff which are continually pulling at them, pulling them away from being to perform their health objectives.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s fascinating with the ability to have that connection, such as you mentioned, and simply figuring out that the exercise is there, like they simply must press play and do the exercise. And also you hear from the those that do the exercise, however what we don’t hear from are the those that didn’t press play they usually didn’t stream that exercise that was there. And so it’s fascinating, such as you mentioned, there’s a lot in folks’s lives that may maintain them again from that. What have you ever seen that works for that client? What doesn’t appear to work for them? And, extra about that.
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, I feel, simply from the enchantment of getting simply accessible dwelling exercises, , it removes numerous the [00:05:00] limitations to entry. The power to say: “Hey, I don’t need to look presentable to go to the health club. I don’t have to fret in regards to the commute.” We now have numerous younger mother and father, , like, “Oh, I put my youngster down for a nap and I’m gonna hit a fast thirty minute exercise, whether or not they sleep within the different room or whereas they’re within the room, I’m gonna work out.”
And so for HASfit’s viewers, it’s actually about simply the simply accessibility and identical to with the ability to hit play at any time with no excuses at any time when they’ve ten to thirty minutes of their day. And so the folks which are profitable, are the those that construct that behavior to search for these moments and get that exercise in.
So it sounds such as you’re proper there of their front room. You’re chatting with the patron in a very natural, approachable means, which after we checked out your movies up to now, it positively has that basically approachable feeling to it, which I feel is nice for folks.
As a result of, I imply, as we all know, lots of people are intimidated by health normally. So it’s superior that you just’ve approached the intimidation issue by being actual in your finish. However then additionally, as you talked about, lowering the friction, which will increase adherence and issues like that. Tremendous cool.
Joshua Kozak: Precisely. Yeah.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s really an fascinating level, too. Generally while you see skilled [00:06:00] streaming instructors, like Peloton instructors or Apple Health instructors, folks appear to assume they’ve this like good life and it’s, “Oh, they’ve good motivation and it’s easy for them.” And “If it was my job to work out all day, then I’d be in form.” And it’s actually onerous to narrate to folks like that, although behind the scenes these folks have simply as many struggles, if no more than lots of people. However, it’s good to have any person that appears extra actual that individuals can relate to, like Preston was saying.
That’s one of many issues that’s flawed with the health trade as a complete, is there’s thismisconception that you need to be good. That each one these folks’s our bodies are good, 300 and sixty 5 days out of the yr.
Joshua Kozak: After which should you’re not that, “Why am I even attempting?” And “If I can’t work out seven days every week for an hour a time, then what’s the purpose?” However that’s not actual world, that’s not actual life. We’ve been profitable in being extra real and genuine.
I feel I acquired my first like weight set at 13 years previous. I’ve been exercising since then. I’ve to, like,encourage myself and provides myself a pep speak. I’m gonna work out later at this time and I’m gonna want, give myself slightly pep speak earlier than I do.
You dovetailed proper into the subsequent query, so I gained’t spoil that one. [00:07:00] However,I simply wanna take a fast second, as a result of our viewers are the builders as properly,creating this stuff. So I feel one form of pin to place in it’s, that observe that numerous creators, once they really feel like they wanna create one thing nice on this trade, they assume that it needs to be this loopy excessive manufacturing worth. After which, talking of friction, not solely on the health facet, however friction on the creator facet, you’re identical to, “Ah, crap, I don’t have the money to get this fancy tools or the money to do that loopy studio”, or no matter. So I feel that’s the opposite factor, except for serving the shopper, one of many cool issues that it appears you’ve accomplished with the HASfit stuff is simply saying, “Hey, I’m simply gonna use the tools I’ve,and get it on the market as a creator and serve the audiences as shortly as attainable as properly.”
Preston Lewis: So I feel that’s observe to point out folks that you just’ve actually confirmed the lean, fast, manufacturing side as properly.
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, simply to comply with up with that, briefly. I acquired began with 100 {dollars} Canon Energy Shot digital camera that I picked up. It was, like, not a camcorder, like a digital digital camera for these older people listening that keep in mind these earlier than we had smartphone to take them.
It could solely shoot ten minutes at a time. So I might shoot ten minutes, after which it could go off, after which I’d need to [00:08:00] restart and put the whole lot again collectively. All that to say, I feel, persons are coming should you could be your actual self and be somebody that they will relate to. They’re gonna present up for that over high quality lighting and 4K video.
Preston Lewis: Yep.
Ryan DeLuca: Very true. Yeah, so on that observe, like we talked about, what do you see as the most important drawback with the health trade at this time? We form of talked about slightly bit in regards to the issue, and the those that appear to be good and we’re being as natural as attainable. However, in health normally, and present health firms, there’s a complete bunch of stuff on the market, so many streaming providers, so manygyms, and various kinds of exercises, and various kinds of tools and wearables. There’s so many issues, however but, we’re extra overweight and we’re extra outta form than ever. And we all the time speak about that stat of eighty plus p.c of individuals aren’t in a position to stick with a health program, even with all these choices.
Why do you assume that’s? What does the health trade get flawed at this time?
That’s an excellent query, , and it’s identical to you talked about, I imply, lots of of thousands and thousands and billions of {dollars} going into startups attempting to resolve this drawback, and we’re not any nearer to reaching it.
Joshua Kozak: And once I have a look at the trade and what issues they’re attempting to resolve for, they’re attempting to resolve for schooling, they usually’re attempting to resolve for like self quantification or metric monitoring. [00:09:00] Proper? Like new trackers, et cetera. However, should you really converse to folks, that’s not the issues they’re experiencing.
Individuals aren’t not exercising trigger they don’t know what’s good for them. By now, everyone is aware of. Like everyone at each nook of the planet, they know they need to be exercising. That’s not a secret, ? So, the schooling facet, it’s like, what are we doing right here, people?
After which, the self quantification facet actually solely helps these which are doing the whole lot else proper. And that’s gonna give them like that high two to 5 p.c edge in enchancment. And that’s nice if you’re already getting eight hours of sleep at night time, you’re already consuming all, you’re getting all your vitamin, you already exercising, you’re already getting all of yournon-exercise exercise in.
However, that applies to so few folks. And so, while you really like starttalking to folks, it actually boils down to love threethings.
They lack motivation. Why train? Like, I don’t have the motivation to get began.
They lack consistency. They get began they usually stop, after which there’s no, they’re not going for any prolonged time period. It’s on and off the wagon, is what I hear on a regular basis.
After which, fairly frankly, they discover train boring. Which is why we’re right here having this dialog at this time. It justdoesn’t curiosity them. It’s like [00:10:00] working on the treadmill. The varieties of modalities that we’ve put collectively aren’t pure for us and our human brains. You already know, like, what are we working in the direction of right here? And they also, all form ofcompound into the opposite overlaying drawback, which is it takes a very long time to see outcomes in relation to health.
So, as a result of we’re not seeing outcomes, we lose motivation, we lack consistency and train is boring. However these lots of of thousands and thousands of {dollars} aren’t going into fixing these issues. They’re going into like excessive tech, which is cool. I really like tech. I’m a technologist, however I like tech that solves an issue, and I don’t assume we’re fixing that drawback. Proper now.
Ryan DeLuca: Nice factors. Couldn’t have mentioned it higher.
Joshua Kozak: Come down from my soapbox now.
Ryan DeLuca: I feel we’re all on that soapbox. It’s an enormous soapbox. There’s numerous room.
Preston Lewis: To transition slightly bit, you talked about HASfit. You have been early within the area, you bought scrappy with the precise manufacturing of issues, quickly created worth for a rising client base. You have been in a position to cut back the friction of going to the health club, not even having to go to the health club, however with the ability to get that health club slash health expertise within the consolation of your individual dwelling.
And have been you doing this [00:11:00] earlier than the P90X days or in the identical time?
Joshua Kozak: P90X had been round. That they had launched P90X and Madness, have been there two merchandise. That was earlier than they’d a complete suite, , at thetime it was simply the 2 DVD choices. Yeah.
Preston Lewis: Yeah, so that you’re creating this content material tremendous early, as you talked about, you’re a technologist, utilizing the instruments you had at your disposal. Proper? Even when it was a crappy little camcorder or no matter, you simply went out and grabbed the tech and went after it. And it appears like,and we’ll get into this slightly bit later within the present, however you’re beginning to do this along with your subsequent enterprise.
However what sort of began to get you particularly in VR and AR, and a few of these different newer applied sciences which are coming?
Joshua Kozak: You form of alluded to it already, butmy methodology all alongside has been to say, “What applied sciences are approaching, what developments are approaching which are what we are able to leverage to assist get folks shifting.”
And , the opposite factor I might add to what you simply mentioned about HASfit, is it was bandwidth enhance. It was simply at that time limit that bandwidth was quick sufficient to assist streaming video. There’s a purpose why Netflix began with mail and never streaming, proper?
It’s just like the speeds simply weren’t there. And so now we’re [00:12:00] getting into one other paradigm shift, the place there are new applied sciences approaching which have the chance to make train extra enjoyable, proper? I see that being the most important drawback once I look again at my expertise, and the place I’ve been, and the place we are actually and the place we’re headed. Is, what can we do to make train extra enjoyable?
And, , VR, AR, and a number of the new applied sciences are creating alternative to not solely make it extra enjoyable, however then decrease that motivation threshold required to get shifting. It’s only a logical reply and subsequent step inwhat we are able to leverage, in comparison with the place lots of people are going proper now, simply going again to the final query, which is enchancment in sensor expertise. Which is nice, however that’s solely gonna assist the 5 p.c which are already doing the whole lot else proper.Do you’ve gotten any kinda magic moments while you first tried VR, and also you’re like, “Okay, wait a minute, this can be a completely different tech, that is gonna be insanely highly effective”?
Yeah, that’s query. I don’t wanna say I’ll wish to teardown different folks’s merchandise, however like, once I attempt VR health merchandise I’m like, “Hey, that is actually cool, however man, I might do that, I might try this, I might do that completely different.” And so, I feel for me it was getting in after which [00:13:00] seeing the alternatives on what I all the time to look and steal or borrow what persons are doing proper, after which enhance on the place I feel I can enhance.
What acquired thrilling was once I mentioned, “Look, listed here are the VR fitnessgames and functions that exist already, and truthfully, I feel there’s a lot room for enchancment.” However they’re already partaking folks. So it’s like, “Wow, in the event that they’re working proper now like this, think about if X, Y, and Z have been to occur?”
So to me, that’s the thrilling half, is to see like how a lot is left, proper? How a lot enchancment is left.
Ryan DeLuca: I imply, on that observe, like, I feel we form of all agree. Proper? We play sure video games like Beat Saber or different form of comparable ones. It’s like, there’s one thing actually magical that occurs in VR, the immersive a part of it, and like, actually being into these experiences.
However, there does appear to be a lacking piece. And what we all the time form of speak about is that development piece. Video games do such job of making these compulsion loops that make you wish to come again, and also you’ve invested time into this recreation, and also you’vecreated issues within the personalization and the purpose setting. Which numerous the present experiences are fairly one dimensional; it’s simply do the exercise, do the exercise, and there’s rather more that connects all of it collectively.
Preston Lewis: Good level. I imply,piggybacking on that, too, what you’re seeing [00:14:00] is, in fact everybody goes on the market and borrows patterns and learns new issues from new video games and this, that and the opposite.
It’s fascinating to see,we’re within the form of early days of VR health, however it’s fascinating to see lots of people are going out and barely tweaking experiences, proper? Versus, and once more, we’ll get into your your, stuff, butit’s simply one other form of ” slash recreation”. Yeah, precisely.
Preston Lewis: So,actually to speak about what you bought developing. However, last item on the VR, AR facet, are there any experiences there that you just’ve seen are the perfect ones on the market, particularly for VR, AR health?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah. I promise I’m not being paid to say this, however to me, Black Field VR is basically setting a bar fairly excessive.
Simply so it doesn’t sound like this can be a paid promo, I’m gonna articulate in my very own phrases “why”. So it’s the differentiation between a gamified health expertise versus a health pushed recreation. And I feel that’s a very necessary distinction, as a result of what you see most individuals available in the market doing at this time, is that they’re simply taking regular train health after which they’re including factors, leaderboards and badges to it.
However that’s not a recreation. You’re gamifying health, nevertheless it’s simply nonetheless health. In contrast [00:15:00] to what Black Field VR is doing, which is, a recreation that occurs to be pushed by the health that you just’re doing. I might play Black Field VR with a management in a standard means, the place you’ll be able to’t say that about most VR health video games which are simply utilizing, like, regular actions and simply including factors to it.
Sothat’s what excites me, is that potential to take it to the subsequent degree and never simply be a copycat arm swinger, rhythm recreation like a number of the tasks on the market.
Ryan DeLuca: It positively wasn’t a paid promo. However, what’s your Venmo once more?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah, precisely.
Ryan DeLuca: You nailed it. I imply, that’s what’s our complete purpose from the very starting. It’s like, how do you make it really a enjoyable recreation first that you just’d wish to play and itch to come back again, and thenadd on the health side to it from there. Be certain that it’s an efficient health program, in fact, as a result of I’d a lot somewhat simply play the controller if I’m not gonna get the health outcomes from it. So that you gotta just remember to’re getting either side.
Joshua Kozak: After all, yeah, in fact. You gotta have each represented.
Preston Lewis: Yeah, superior. So once more, you’ve acquired all this historical past within the health area, a pioneer, you’ve tried all these VR, AR experiences, form of been gathering these patterns, seeing how one can construct your individual product. And now you’re beginning a brand new [00:16:00] immersive health firm referred to as, is it Loodo?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah. Loodo. Loodo with a unique spelling in Latin is to play. So I simply form of switched up the spelling there.
Ryan DeLuca: I used to be questioning should you use that.
Joshua Kozak: I wanna construct the Fortnite of health, which, , is an formidable purpose. However you don’t accomplish massive ambitions with out having that purpose. To begin, it’s only a cell health recreation utilizing your physique because the controller. Utilizing pc imaginative and prescient expertise to trace your physique and the actions that you just do and offer you credit for these actions. And so, the play’s form of amix between an limitless runner recreation and a task participant recreation the place you’ve gotten periods, ranges, quests, and periods begin at 5 minutes a bit.
Cool. We noticed the video put up, I feel it was on Twitter or one thing. We noticed it pop up, appears tremendous compelling. So, why begin with cell?
Joshua Kozak: You already know, this was like one thing that I toiled with for fairly a while. And, proper now it’s, accessibility, is what it it comes all the way down to.
You already know, there’s the fee ofVR headsets, after which there’s nonetheless some movement illness challenges for some customers. After which the monitoring necessities that I would like.We’re like, early, ,iPhone one section of the {hardware} improvement lifecycle. [00:17:00] So for me,I’ve chosen to get the sport on the market and be capable to present a really comparable expertise to what I’ll finally be capable to ship in AR, VR, however by means of cell, and get and speed up my studying.
So this fashion I can get it out, I can begin studying, after which when the time is true, we are able to port the sport over to AR, VR. After which I form of alluded to it earlier, however the perfect analogy I’ve is the Netflix’s technique, proper? I imply, identify d the corporate Netflix, they didn’t identify it Mailbox Flick.
That was all the time the plan, however they needed to look forward to the expertise to mature sufficient. It began simply mail order, after which it was principally mail order with like a fewstreaming choices, once more, as they waited for bandwidth to catch up. However then when bandwidth caught up, growth, they have been in place to take off.
Joshua Kozak: So if I have been to say “What playbook I’m, attempting torun proper now?”, that’s the playbook.
Preston Lewis: Yeah, that’s good. And once more, fast level to theaudience, all of this creation’s set within the context of what applied sciences can be found. What you’re doing is mainly you’ve gotten this concept of, okay, the VR, AR trade is gonna be tremendous highly effective.Type of lean startup smart, utilizing what you [00:18:00] have, studying as shortly as you’ll be able to, to iterate on the expertise. That’s actually good. So, should you wanna speak about what issues is Loodo fixing for?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah. You already know, one we talked about earlier than. The low hanging fruit, which is the motivation and consistency facet, proper? Attempting to eradicate thecognitive necessities that train locations on people at this time limit.
ButI’ll spend just a bit longer speaking about two others that possibly aren’t as apparent. One is younger folks. In our early buyer analysis we havea lot of youthful people which are tremendous curious about what we’re doing. And now we have numerous mother and father of younger folks curious about signing up on the wait checklist for his or her children, as a result of they’re like, “My children play too many video video games and possibly this can be a means I can really get them to maneuver.”
After which children have an interest as properly. So, , like us older fellows which were lifting weights and doing issues a standard means for fairly a while, it’s slightly more durable to show an previous canine new methods. The place the newer era doesn’t have established habits but. So with this younger new era I don’t have to vary behaviors which will exist already. After which,the opposite factor that stood out in ourresearch is brief bouts of motion all through the day.
Loodo [00:19:00] can work two other ways. So once more, the degrees are 5 minutes. So you’ll be able to both take part in six back-to-back 5 minute ranges, and do a thirty minute full physique exercise. Or, should you work out of your desk all day, like, , the three of us do, proper? And like, “Oh shoot, my again doesn’t really feel good. I acquired 5 minutes in between conferences. You already know what? I wanna hold my streak alive.” You may flip Loodo on, knock out 5 minutes, get your factors, get your streak going, and get again to your desk. So it additionally works for brief bouts of motion that may be added to any person’s present exercise routine with out essentially having to exchange it as properly, simply to assist them get extra motion in all through the day.
Preston Lewis: Sensible. So, folks that may profit are, would you say form ofthe normal inhabitants, or would you say particularly the youthful, early kinda adopters not having to vary their behaviors and issues?
Joshua Kozak: Yeah. You already know, I’m an enormous fan of Present Me, Don’t Inform Me. And proper now I solely have Inform Me information. I don’t have Present Me information. However all of the Inform Me information says that it’s really a very wide selection. We now have folks on our wait checklist from twelve years previous as much as eighty years previous. Yeah, I imply,I’ll offer you a stat.
Fifteen p.c of the folks on our ready checklist are between sixty to eighty years previous. So yeah, , it’sa drawback [00:20:00] that individuals have all throughout the board. And so whereas, sure, I’m actually trying to seize, that eighty p.c of the those that aren’t exercising usually. The opposite perception that we’ve realized is folks which are exercising usually, they don’t essentially love what they’re doing. Yeah, they’ve constructed that behavior, however that doesn’t imply that they’re having fun with it, ? In order that they’re on the lookout for one thing to maintain it contemporary and never boring, or additive to what they’re already doing, simply to get extra motion all through the day, or on off days.
Preston Lewis: True. Good level. Effectively, so what particularly makes Exergaming so highly effective, proper? So that you’re you’re particularly going to Exergaming, what are you seeing because the issues that make it so highly effective?
I form of alluded to this earlier, however I feel it’simportant to double down on it, which is that it’s not simply including factors, badges on the leaderboard.
Joshua Kozak: That doesn’t make it a recreation, if you’ll. So as a substitute, it’s all of the behavioral design components which are gonna make that constructive affect. It’sthe craft of deriving all of the enjoyable and fascinating components present in video games, and making use of them to train, in order that persons are pulled into train versus having to be pushed into.
You already know, that’s a keydistinction. I discussed having to go get a session in later. [00:21:00] I’m gonna need to push myself into that. It’s not like being pulled into it, like the place I am going do a thirty minute XBox session. Like these are two completely various things. To me, that’s what makes it so highly effective, it’s that push versus pull.
Ryan DeLuca: That’s such level. We speak so much at Black Field in regards to the hooked mannequin, how folks create habits round new merchandise. And also you probablyheard of it, the guide by Nir. It kinda made me take into consideration what we talked about earlier with HASfit is, you mentioned, “You don’t know the place they’re earlier than they press play in your video.” Proper? Right now’s video, you solely know them once they hit play, once they did the exercise? And there’s not a lot getting in between all of that, proper? So if hitting play is mainly just like the motion, proper, from the hooked mannequin. Then after that, there’s gotta be a variable reward. And normally with exercise streaming providers, you do get slightly little bit of a reward. Clearly you be ok with your self and dopamine and endorphins, and issues like that from doing the exercise. However you additionally get numerous unfavorable, you get the ache of the exercise, you’re drained, you sacrificed time you may have been doing one thing else.
You already know, there’s the funding that they’ve given into this, and also you get one thing again from it. A whole lot of occasions, these streaming providers, as soon as once more, you might need invested into your monitoring, proper? So now I’ve acquired my streak, I’ve acquired some calorie burning there, and I’ve invested that. [00:22:00] After which there’s gotta be some form of set off to carry them again, proper? So the entire thought is there’s a set off that brings you again into it.
Video games are actually good, particularly cell video games, proper? They’re so good about push notification; it is advisable to come again in, as a result of it is advisable to do that factor or this timer simply acquired accomplished. Or a standard recreation you’re gonna play with your pals, or there’s a event or one thing enjoyable occurring. Doing that motion after which getting that reward. The place, it appears like with Loodo, the purpose, as with actually good Exergaming kind of methods, is to finish that loop versus simply the motion section.
How do you’re feeling about that and,have you ever seen that, that appears to make sense?
That aligns with the way in which I’m pondering as properly. I feel Nir does some actually good things. If we’re speaking about behavioral design, my favourite, researcher is Ukai Chao, should you, get to learn his actionable insights.
Joshua Kozak: Yeah,I inform us this framework. So, very comparable in that understanding, how we are able to carry folks alongside, and actually simply get folks to carry out therequirements of the sport, which on this case is train, with out having a deep cognitive load about it.
You already know, the factor I discussed, too, earlier… the large drawback with train is it takes too lengthy to see outcomes. On this means, we are able to get you in, and 5 minutes in you’re seeing outcomes. You’re getting factors, you [00:23:00] leveled up, you went by means of like three, 4 achievements.
Like, “Oh, I noticed outcomes immediately.” And so there are completely different kind of outcome, however we’re already in a position to reward. After which, the purpose is that we get you in lengthy sufficient the place then like, “Holy cow, wait a minute, there’s a complete one other outcome occurring with my bodily actual physique right here, not simply within the app.”
So now we have to maintain folks hooked, if you’ll, to make use of like Nir’s phrase, lengthy sufficient to see these actual world outcomes. And that’s the facility any such design permits.
Preston Lewis: That’s such level. We speak about that on a regular basis. It’s so true, as a result of even when the whole lot about health and consuming, it takes so lengthy to really see outcomes, proper? To truly see that dopamine splash of progress. And as you guys are mentioning, video video games are the alternative, proper? You’re in Legends of Zelda or one thing, and you’ve got your little sword and also you hit the primary little chest and growth, first dopamine. After which with the ability to not solely observe that progress, however be capable to string these little wins collectively.
I feel we’re all saying it, however that’s what we’re additionally seeing that’s probably the most highly effective with Exergaming, as a result of even in our private lives… a member of the family, proper? I’ve numerous members of the family that know we’re within the health trade they usually’re like, “Hey, are you able to please assist me [00:24:00] out?”
And up to now it’s been like, okay, cool. “Right here’s your vitamin plan. Right here’s what it is advisable to do each single day.” After which surely, with out fail, two weeks in, they’re like, ” I’m heavier on the size. What’s occurring?” Becasue now they’re retaining water, they usually’re like, “I surrender.”
Joshua Kozak: Constructing muscle.
Yep. And so they don’t get it. And,to your guys’ level, the Exergaming facet of that, permits us to shorten these suggestions loops and get folks hooked, to the place they give the impression of being down, possibly they’ve their abs coming in they usually’ve really created a wholesome behavior. I’m gonna take thirty extra seconds on this, as a result of I can’t assist myself. . And simply say that, our brains 200 years in the past have been used to lengthy suggestions cycles, proper? We have been farming, we plant the seeds within the Spring and we harvest within the Fall. Like, we’re used to issues taking a very long time.
Every little thing takes a very long time. “I’ve been trying to find every week and I haven’t caught something, as a result of I solely catch one thing as soon as each ten days. After which I get to fulfill no matter.” Proper? That’s the way in which we have been programmed. However now, greater than ever, even the distinction in three to 4 years from Instagram being the primary high canine to TikTok being the primary high canine.
Even that’s like an on the spot gratification change, proper? It’s simply quicker, and quicker, and quicker. So the way in which that we’re wiring all of our [00:25:00] brains, inadvertently, isn’t arrange for achievement in relation to expectations on train.
Preston Lewis: Nice level.
Effectively, we lined numerous nice stuff at this time, actually recognize it. However I’d like to complete up with, the place do you assume VR, AR health, Exergaming… the place’s it gonna go within the subsequent, three to 5 years? And what’s subsequent for you and Loodo? I feel actually, hopefully as we form of alluded to shifting previous simply rhythm video games, and shifting into extra full-fledged video games, builders are gonna begin utilizing all of the instruments that they’ve accessible to them to evolve these health VR experiences.
Joshua Kozak: After which I feel, as this, let’s name it Nice Land Seize, New Land Seize, that all the time occurs with any new expertise, each train modality will probably be represented and gamified indirectly, proper?
There’s gonna be a Pilates VR recreation, there’s gonna be The Yoga, there’s gonna be The HIIT, so the person modalities will begin being represented. The sport can add worth to that modality. So I see that basically increasing.
After which once more, together with theadoption of VR, AR headsets expertise adopts, in parallel to it. And so what does that imply for Loodo? Effectively, Loodo proper now’s in clearly the [00:26:00] early studying phases and we’re attempting to know exactlyhow we are able to leverage these recreation mechanics that we’ve been speaking about to get folks movingwith cell, after which increasing to AR and VR experiences. I see a possibility for each of these. And once more, leaning in the direction of the house person, the person with restricted to no tools, simply making it the bottom barrier to entry, making it as accessible as attainable. And for people who wish to test it out, study extra, you’ll be able to go to GetLoodo, that’s GetLoodo.com, to affix the wait checklist.
Preston Lewis: Superior. That’s so nice. That’s on a regular basis now we have, we’re slightly bit over, however such nice stuff. Actually recognize you being right here. And to our viewers, as , we’ll put the URL you talked about, Josh, within the present notes, in addition to anycontact info to get in contact with Josh.Thanks once more for being right here.
Ryan DeLuca: Yep. Actually recognize it. You get this in a means that I feel everyone’s gonna get it quickly, proper? Video video games, the psychology of video video games and these new applied sciences that enable us to make use of these applied sciences for health.
And, uh, ensure you get that Venmo in regards to the good phrase you mentioned about Black Field.
Joshua Kozak: I’ll get that over to you.
Ryan DeLuca: Yeah. Be certain that.
Joshua Kozak: It’s [00:27:00] been a pleasure, all. Thanks a lot.
Preston Lewis: Thanks a lot, Josh.
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