Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!
Be a part of us as we welcome again Cix Liv of LIV, YUR and REK for Half 2 of our interview with him. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.
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Transcript:
Episode 5 – Cix Liv – Half 2
Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that can revolutionize the best way the world will play sports activities, work out and get match along with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR fitness center and convey a long time of expertise from creating among the largest health expertise corporations on the planet. They’re bringing collectively the perfect and brightest minds that will help you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.
All proper. Welcome to half two of our interview with Cix Liv, who’s a VR, AR XR guru and pioneer. In our earlier Half 1 Episode with Cix, he defined his background, which actually make clear how creators must have a ardour for the tech and business they want to break into, and in addition to construct rapidly and keep near the voice of the shopper to actually perceive what they’re loving and hating.
Let’s choose up with our final query from the earlier podcast the place Cix shares insights as to the easiest way to gather consumer suggestions for a [00:01:00] product.
Do you’ve any small suggestions so far as the way you go about intelligently gathering that suggestions? Is it simply straight up scouring the Fb posts, organising a Discord? Or do you’ve particular issues that you just do, for instance create surveys, do focus teams, or how does that course of go for you with gathering the suggestions?
Cix Liv: In the event you talk with an individual, like, straight, it’s sort of just like the distinction between speaking to somebody via 4Chan and speaking to somebody via their face. Like face-to-face. Proper?
in case you’re on 4Chan, you’re gonna shit on every part. It’s nearly like straight from mind stem to face, proper? Like “this fucking is horrible, that shit blah, blah, blah, blah.” After which after they discuss to you, they’re gonna be like, “effectively, I believe you must, you already know, enhance this” or no matter. Proper? So, I believe it’s getting each of these views. Proper? As a result of what you miss whenever you’re talking to their customers are those that didn’t even care sufficient to speak to you, proper? Normally [00:02:00] the customers that you just’re speaking to are someplace between precise customers and professional customers. Proper?
And also you’re often getting not plenty of the suggestions of the folks that simply turned immediately. Proper? They don’t wanna fucking reply to you. They don’t give a shit, they don’t wish to let you know what their expertise was. So that you’re gonna have a blind spot on that class of potential customers. Proper?
So for these, you’re gonna need to, like, discover it anecdotally via, like, Fb posts or dangerous opinions, and this is the reason I’d all the time chase the dangerous evaluation folks. In the event you’re constructing that shopper product to grasp what’s churning folks from the start and what enhancements can I make for these informal customers, after which the professional customers, ought to we cater to them or not? So I believe that getting these three views and perhaps bucketing folks in these three issues, is an efficient solution to iterate in your product.
Preston Lewis: That’s good recommendation.
Ryan DeLuca: And it appears like, I imply, the troublesome half, after all is simply having that open [00:03:00] mindset. Proper? It’s very easy to, such as you stated, low cost the detrimental opinions, or when any individual’s telling you one thing you wish to like clarify it. And somewhat than get extra details about why do they suppose that, and what would they like, how would we alter it? Generally you instantly wanna go into, like, defensive mode. However I agree with you, like, interacting with the neighborhood as a lot as you probably can. Creating alternatives for these interactions, like, via, like, locations like Discord, on-line, or for us truly within the fitness center. Taking customers out to breakfast or lunch, and actually digging into it. And doing it from a spot of studying, not a spot of simply attempting to make them say good issues, and taking that mindset again to the product.
Preston Lewis: A few of our greatest suggestions has come from our sort of squeakiest wheels, if you’ll. Folks that, after they do strategy it, it’s like this, you already know, they’re perhaps rage quitting on an expertise or one thing like that. And it’s, to your level, it’s good to have these folks which might be at the least passionate sufficient to present us the suggestions that we are able to hearken to after which iterate. As a result of it’s often, it’s often on the mark for bigger teams of our customers. So, yeah. Recognize that recommendation, man. That’s superior.
Cix Liv: Yeah.
Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, let’s get into thrilling new issues [00:04:00] that you just’re doing. So, um, now not with YUR, um, and now you’ve began a brand new AR sports activities firm referred to as REK and we’d like to study much more about that. So how’d that come about? What made you resolve to begin that and, uh, inform us somewhat bit in regards to the product.
Cix Liv: The most recent firm I began is REK. So it’s sort of a mixture of the 2 prior corporations within the learnings that I had there. So, LIV, the most important studying was how will we attain the folks exterior the headset? How will we make it attention-grabbing for folks to look at? In the event you mix that with health, which you already know, is for my part the most important use case of headsets, the information means that retention for health associated apps is twice as excessive as the rest in VR.
Yeah, truly, that’s one small level to say at YUR that we seen. So we had an underlying tracker that labored on the headset it doesn’t matter what. Proper? And what we acknowledged is that when folks used their headset for health, they used it over twice as lengthy.
So the typical utilization [00:05:00] size for a headset was about eighteen minutes. However after they used it for health it went as much as forty. That was an enormous studying for me, proper? So the massive studying from LIV was we have to present what individuals are doing and we have to make it cool for different folks to look at.
The most important studying from YUR was headsets getting used for health have the perfect retention. And, you already know, I consider basically it’s the most important use case of HMDs. Um, so in case you mix these two learnings of health and spectating, you create, you already know what is basically sports activities. Proper?
I began this firm beneath this premise that, you already know, sports activities are going to be the subsequent huge factor. And the explanation I consider that’s as a result of I did some ideation in augmented actuality and it sort of fell into the identical problems with VR, which is, like, why the fuck do I placed on a headset? Proper? And plenty of AR apps have that very same problem the place they’re like, “okay, I placed on a headset so I can play puzzles with my pal who’s additionally bodily there.” After which at that time, I’m similar to, “why don’t you simply fucking [00:06:00] put a puzzle there?” Proper? Like, why are we digitizing that have when it’s one thing that you are able to do in actual life?
Or like, “you wish to do augmented actuality basketball? Why don’t you simply play basketball?” Proper? Like, the particular person’s already there. A basketball is, you already know, like twenty bucks. Proper? It’s like expertise attempting to unravel an issue that doesn’t exist. Proper?
So, you already know, there was lots of people who had been doing VR sports activities and for me, I used to be like, “effectively that’s not gonna work in AR, since you’re finally simply gonna churn out and do the actual factor.” Proper? Because of this I’ve an issue with VR sports activities; I consider that the issue with VR sports activities is that the last word purpose is whenever you develop into ok at it, you flip into the actual factor.
What I grew to become fascinated with is, like, Tron. Let’s make a sport that doesn’t exist in actual life. You watch any sci-fi film that’s ever existed. Proper? [00:07:00] And after they present the way forward for sports activities it’s often comparatively comparable. Proper? Folks doing stuff and like dueling one another and killing one another digitally, doing stuff which you could’t do in regular sports activities. Like, you may’t kill your pal in basketball.
Sci-fi motion pictures sort of demonstrated what the way forward for sports activities may seem like, and generally you don’t wish to struggle in opposition to the cultural zeitgeist of one thing and simply comply with via with it.
I began this firm with my co-founder Bart.
He was a senior AR engineer at Apple. And you already know, one of many issues he’s all the time been actually concerned with is, what are legitimate use circumstances of AR that may truly exist proper now? And so he constructed a laser tag sport that received the primary place for an open laptop imaginative and prescient contest final 12 months.
And principally I reached out to him and I used to be like, “hey, you already know, like, we should always take into consideration what’s gonna be, like, the Beat Saber of AR? As we transfer to AR, what’s gonna be a correct use case of headsets?” So after we first got here collectively,[00:08:00] we had been testing issues like Area Pirate Coach Enviornment.
So Area Pirate Coach Enviornment, it’s thirty by thirty ft, and it’s like a laser tag sport the place you run round and also you shoot at one another in VR. Proper? And so we had been testing video games like that, and to begin with, it was such a fucking ache within the ass to discover a place that was thirty by thirty ft precisely. After which the best way that you just draw the Guardian with the Quest was a large nightmare. So it needed to even be even larger than that. And if it was exterior, we’d need to hotspot it, and it could solely work throughout sure occasions of the day and all this nightmare. However then one other large factor that we seen, is that whenever you truly bodily run in VR, it’s so uncomfortable. Your mind begins freaking out.
It’s like, “the place the fuck are you? Like, are you gonna run into one thing? Is somebody gonna mug you?” It needs to be AR whenever you’re operating. When you introduce operating, there needs to be augmented actuality.
Ryan DeLuca: [00:09:00] Like, I agree. Like, I’ve by no means skilled truly operating in VR. Um, yeah, however you’d need to, like, have a ridiculous quantity of belief.
Cix Liv: Yeah. I imply, in case you’ve performed any boxing sport in VR and punched something, proper? I keep in mind I punched a desk one time and my entire hand was bleeding, however I didn’t notice till I took off the headset and I used to be like, “holy shit.”
Preston Lewis: Oh, wow.
Ryan DeLuca: There may be much less ache notion, so I assume that may very well be good and dangerous. There’s a complete subreddit of VR to ER. Proper? Uh, for a cause.
Cix Liv: Oh, is it actually referred to as VR to ER?
Ryan DeLuca: Oh yeah. Persons are displaying them destroying issues or hurting themselves.
Preston Lewis: It messes with the immersiveness. Proper? As effectively. As a result of, yeah, such as you stated, like, when you try this one time, then you definately’re not eager about being within the expertise. You’re eager about hitting one thing. Similar factor occurred to me once I was, uh, I used to be enjoying one of many baseball video games and it miscalibrated my place and so I used to be, like, inches from a wall and went to swing for a pitch and simply slugged the wall as onerous as I probably may. Yeah, I’m not enjoying that anymore.
Cix Liv: The second you introduce [00:10:00] operating, that concern turns into a lot extra realized.
Preston Lewis: Attention-grabbing.
Cix Liv: Your physique actually begins freaking out. Trigger it’s, like, is that an actual wall or is {that a} digital wall? The way in which these video games sync, they interlace the avatar on high of the particular person. Proper? But when that’s off by any vital diploma, you’re simply gonna run head first into you’re a pal. And simply slam into them. Proper? I basically consider that after you develop out of the restricted footprint of VR, it needs to be AR, in case you’re like operating and doing stuff like that.
However there’s large, large challenges with AR. One of the crucial apparent ones, in case you begin constructing for this, is that, like, any of those go via headsets, they don’t truly section the gamers correctly. So what finally ends up taking place is that every part renders in entrance of the particular person. So say that you just’re, like, competing in opposition to another person. Proper? And that particular person is there and also you wanna put a purpose behind them. Oh, it sounds easy. Proper? However you [00:11:00] can’t, as a result of the purpose must render in entrance of them. It could’t lower the particular person out and render the article behind them.
So it’s a must to do immensely sophisticated technical stuff to unravel one thing that wouldn’t exist in VR. Proper? Since you don’t have that very same downside in VR the place it’s a must to, like, section the particular person out. So it’s a must to introduce an invisible avatar that renders on that very same particular person, the place the particular person is, after which it’s a must to ensure that the particular person is synced correctly.
After which, you’re creating that cutout in entrance of the purpose that’s behind them. In any other case, you’ll see the small purpose, nevertheless it’ll render in entrance of the particular person, even when they’re, like…
Preston Lewis: That’s attention-grabbing. So it’s like real-time rotoscoping slash masking. That’s attention-grabbing.
Cix Liv: Because of this, you already know, after we introduced REK, or no matter, we did a very easy factor. We did spell duals. Proper? And the explanation we did spell duals had been, okay, you’re punching. It is a mechanic that anyone can perceive. [00:12:00] And one of many greatest issues for me that I decide as successful standards, is the simplicity of preliminary adoption. So whenever you placed on a headset, the period of time that it takes somebody to grasp the right way to play a sport is extremely essential. Trigger I’ve demoed VR for hours and hours and hours, and the longer that point takes, the upper likelihood that they’re gonna churn out. Proper? In order that needs to be, like, as slender as doable.
So we began, okay, you’re punching on the particular person, no buttons. Quite simple. Proper? After which the explanation it’s a spell duel, is since you don’t need to render any objects behind them. So it wasn’t similar to, hey, we awakened and we had been like, “Hey, let’s do a spell twin like Harry Potter or some shit.” It was primarily based off the constraints of the Quest headset. Proper?
Like, we are able to’t have objectives behind them. We will’t do all this different fancy stuff with no large quantity of engineering effort. So the bottom bar for us had been simply, “effectively, let’s punch Fireballs at one another.” And in order that’s sort of the explanation why that preliminary demo was [00:13:00] the best way it was.
Preston Lewis: Small little notice there for our customers, sort of placing a pin in the truth that we talked about you getting scrappy with consumer suggestions and letting that sort of information product selections. That was a very good instance you simply gave of enjoying within the sandbox of what the expertise can truly do and achieve and discovering enjoyable, as quick as doable within the expertise. So, that’s good.
Ryan DeLuca: A giant a part of REK, and why folks appear to love us a lot additionally, is with the ability to spectate. Proper? To allow them to truly watch it from the skin. What you actually put a concentrate on with REK, was making it in order that different folks can watch it in actual time and cheer them on in actual time such as you would a sport. And the way did you get that to work and what have you ever discovered from that kinda means?
Cix Liv: We realized from fairly early on that having any kind of serious obstacles, wouldn’t solely be complicated for the gamers, however create visible conflicts for spectators. Proper? Whenever you’re watching a soccer sport otherwise you’re watching a soccer sport or [00:14:00] one thing, they don’t have like partitions. Proper? Hypothetically if a digicam existed in soccer they usually had all these partitions in all places, you wouldn’t be capable to see what the gamers are doing. It’s design challenges like that which might be essential, however they’re additionally limiting. Proper? Now you may’t do plenty of the shit that you just’ve carried out in VR with all these cool environments. Principally the setting nearly disappears at that time. Proper? You may’t have a fancy setting in case you’re attempting to spectate. So, I believe that that’s additionally gonna be one thing to consider that we’re gonna have to determine. We could need to render one thing completely different for the gamers contained in the headset than what folks exterior see. So, like, within the headset you’d see opaque pillars, however within the spectator view they’re clear. Proper?
Like, all these design selections that you just’re gonna need to make, that you just wouldn’t need to even take into consideration in VR, in case you’re designing deliberately for spectating. The final word product that [00:15:00] we’re gonna launch shouldn’t be gonna be a spell duel sport in the identical capability. Um, however yeah, we had been simply, you already know, what’s the most elementary factor that we are able to do? And what’s the mechanic that anyone on the planet can perceive? And yeah, that’s sort of the place that got here.
We’ve been engaged on fairly a couple of completely different sport ideas and within the subsequent few months we’ll announce that, uh, and it’s not gonna be fairly the identical because the spell duel for the ultimate product, so.
Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, now I’m excited to listen to extra about that.
I don’t know if there’s the rest you wished to say about creating REK and like the choices that had been made round that.
Cix Liv: So we initially got here on this thought, like, “hey, we’re gonna do LBE and stuff”. Proper? After which we truly went via the method of attempting to get into the LBE sport and, uh, whew, man, I don’t…
Ryan DeLuca: Location primarily based leisure, so precise retail footprint. Proper?
Cix Liv: Yeah, yeah. So we checked out Sandbox and we had been like, okay, Sandbox has all these places, [00:16:00] however they’re capital costly, you already know? So then we had been like, “okay, so we’ll ship folks {hardware} and have them set it up at their venue.” And we had been like, “okay, however then we’re gonna have like a 15 12 months previous contemporary outta highschool attempting to handle this shit. In order that’s gonna be a nightmare and a half attempting to, like, handle that remotely.” Um, so we had been simply, you already know, we tried to work some channel companions on it and we simply realized the LBE technique is one thing that we simply couldn’t afford, actually. You recognize, we couldn’t afford to even strive it.
So we’re going again to approaching it as creating shopper product. That’s additionally like the place my specialty comes from, like constructing in VR, is on the buyer facet. So we’re gonna have a VR mode that connects to an AR mode, and our greatest focus is gonna be constructing the bridge between these two worlds. How do you truly get folks to convey a headset exterior? And I believe that’s an unsolved downside. And the best way I like to elucidate it, in essentially the most succinct manner doable, is REK is [00:17:00] attempting to do to headsets what Niantic, you already know, Pokemon Go did to telephones. Which is get folks to, like, consider their gadgets as nearly like a health extension of themselves. Or, like, utilizing that to stroll round.
I do suppose that sooner or later we could return into LBEs, nevertheless it’s possible gonna be extra like UFC tournaments, excessive manufacturing worth, you already know, advertisers, no matter. As a result of, yeah, it’s actually costly and we don’t have the, you already know, we didn’t have the cash to try this. Proper?
Preston Lewis: We’ve seen that as you’re constructing these experiences, one of many belongings you’ve carried out, you and the workforce have carried out very well is making them look cool. Not solely within the expertise, however within the advertising and marketing. We sort of talked about the viral movies and issues that you just did early on. It sounds kinda like a easy factor. Proper? To make issues look cool. As a result of that is future tech, this new tech, and it looks like it’d be straightforward to make it cool. However, with Black Field VR, we’ve needed to struggle the notion within the early days, at the least that VR Health was just for [00:18:00] tremendous techy folks.
However you guys have carried out simply an superior job making it approachable and funky. Even wanting on the REK movies, these are additionally getting a bunch of consideration and simply kudos to you and the workforce on making the tech look cool.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s a such a very good level. So many occasions some new VR health factor comes out or exercise sport, and it’s similar to the worst graphics, the worst advertising and marketing. And clearly that’s not crucial factor, you already know, in plenty of experiences. Like, we all the time speak about Minecraft, for instance, you already know, beginning out extra pixelated sort of stuff.
It’s all the time, like, man, folks wanna look cool. Like, you already know, such as you stated, it’s like no person needs to experience a Segway, however we’ll experience a cool chicken scooter down the street. Proper? You recognize, it’s like the identical factor, only a completely different configuration. So, such a very good level that Preston made is, like, all of your stuff seems to be fashionable and funky, that folks wanna be part of it.
Preston Lewis: It’s superior. Earlier than we jumped on right here, I used to be a few of your stuff and also you sort of poked enjoyable on the, uh, what was it? Horizon Worlds or one thing like that. And you’ve got, like, you’ve the sort of the dorky sort of graphics and stuff, after which you’ve you’re a hero shot. I believed that was actually good. I imply, that’s one other factor that’s actually essential, once more, in driving [00:19:00] adoption is that software of contrasting. Proper?
And displaying folks, like, it doesn’t need to be this, it may be this. Something that we’ve seen you do, it’s, you’ve carried out a very good job with that.
Cix Liv: You’re speaking in regards to the tweet the place it was like their Metaverse our Metaverse, after which it was just like the… yeah.
Preston Lewis: Yeah. That was superior.
Cix Liv: I imply, to be sincere, Meta is making it fairly straightforward, okay. I’ve to be considerably on their good graces, so I’m sorry prematurely. However, uh, you actually gotta work in your advertising and marketing. The Horizons World stuff, I consider, is so dangerous that it’s taking down our entire business.
I consider Horizon Worlds is so poorly marketed, and such a nasty product, that’s taking down your complete VR house. As a result of whenever you go into the cultural zeitgeist of speaking to folks about Metaverse. Proper? The very very first thing they’re gonna consider is the shitty wanting Zuck avatar and, you already know, Horizon Worlds And that’s by intention, that Meta is, like, that is the Metaverse, proper? And it’s discrediting [00:20:00] what so many cool issues that we’ve constructed on this house seem like. And it’s actually disappointing, as a result of I believe it’s such a nasty allocation of assets, and it’s such a nasty search for headsets that it’s truly hurting all of us.
Ryan DeLuca: A few of the commercials they make are wonderful. You recognize, after they present, like, what it’s prefer to be in VR and put the headset on. Now you’re on this large factor and simply thoughts blowing. And also you’re proper, and clearly it’s nonetheless early days, so we’re all hopeful. Proper?
As a result of I agree with you, like, with the quantity of funding that they’re placing into it, they will make or break it, you already know? And in the event that they do an excellent job, the {hardware} will get to the place it must be. It’s gonna be very useful for all of us. However you’re proper, it may convey us down if it’s not the product that the mainstream needs.
Cix Liv: I’d look into the PICO if I had been you guys, I don’t know in case you used the PICO 4 in any respect, however, like, this factor is every part the Quest 2 ought to be. It’s thinner, it’s smaller, it’s extra light-weight, it’s designed extra for health. It’s every part the Quest 2.5 ought to have been. And as a substitute, they got here out with a Quest Professional, which is $1,500 that has face [00:21:00] monitoring and eye monitoring, nevertheless it’s even heavier than the Quest 2. And the burden was already a giant downside. I simply I don’t get it.
Preston Lewis: You talked in regards to the AR, VR experiences that you just’ve constructed or are constructing. What are your favourite AR, VR sports activities and health experiences in the present day? And what makes ’em good?
Cix Liv: I actually like this sport referred to as Blaston. I used to be enjoying it quite a bit within the pandemic. So it’s a twin sport, it’s one v. one, and also you’re taking pictures these numerous pace projectiles at one another and there’s no type of locomotion. You’re each on these small pillars, after which what it finally ends up changing into, is like, you’re having to do plenty of dodging… it’s actually energetic. I believe I hit like a thousand energy an hour enjoying that at full depth. I actually favored that.
One of the best sports activities kind sport in VR proper now might be Nock. So in case you’ve tried Nock, Nock makes use of arm locomotion the place you maintain a set off and also you sort of fly within the air after which it makes use of [00:22:00] bows. So that you’re taking pictures arrows at a ball.
I believe my greatest recommendation for individuals who construct VR and AR content material, is on the absolute elementary of what that is, it has to really feel good. If it doesn’t really feel good, nothing else fucking issues. You can also make the perfect graphics on the planet, you may make an excellent storyline, you may make regardless of the fuck particle results which might be wonderful. If the bottom mechanics don’t really feel good, none of that shit issues.
And you already know what completely, completely represents that is Gorilla Tag. In the event you have a look at a screenshot of Gorilla Tag, you’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” They’ve handed Beat Saber for essentially the most opinions on the Quest now. They’re now the primary fucking utility, they usually’re not even within the retailer. And the explanation for that goes again to the purpose that I made right here, at its baseline, there’s a locomotion technique. And the locomotion technique is principally you operating in your palms. Proper? [00:23:00] No buttons, no complexity in any respect. And it’s train. It’s like tag, it’s principally like tag for youths. And the children are in there and it positively will get offensive quite a bit, so perhaps that’s why they’re not in the principle retailer. However it’s principally children operating on their arms, yelling at one another. And that grew to become the primary. I’m not even kidding. They’re simply screaming at one another they usually’re simply operating like this.
Preston Lewis: That’s superior.
Cix Liv: Feels good. Feels good. It doesn’t really feel good nothing fucking issues. And your app goes to flop.
Ryan DeLuca: Anytime I’m attempting to reload a gun in certainly one of these sophisticated sort of first particular person shooters, I assume my definition of VR, they’re all first particular person, you already know?
However it’s like, I’m hitting my controllers collectively, or I’m attempting to do that factor and the man’s coming at me, and I can’t fairly get the little elements of reload. It’s like, it kills it for me, as a result of it’s like, I’m positive I may get good at, I’m positive if I performed at one other ten hours, I’d most likely like, you already know, don’t have any downside.
However at first it’s simply, you’re simply, it’s very awkward.
Cix Liv: You recognize Denny from Cloud Head, proper? He’s a VR OG and he’s made a bunch of [00:24:00] experiences. His authentic video games had been sort of like Myst, like, Name of the Starseed, the place you want, would principally resolve puzzles in VR with actually excessive constancy. And he constructed Pistol Whip, you guys know Pistol Whip, proper? And Pistol Whip is principally similar to Time Disaster on rails by way of, like, the psychological math and what it’s good to do. You recognize, you’re going from extraordinarily advanced, and dynamic and wonderful graphics into, like, principally Cel Shaded Time Disaster.
It was his most profitable title. And, like, I believe plenty of sport builders are mad about that. They usually go, ” why can’t now we have wonderful graphics? Why can’t now we have dynamic storylines? Why can’t now we have all this different shit?” And it’s like, effectively, if it doesn’t really feel good, individuals are simply gonna use their console. They’re simply gonna go play their Ps. Proper?
Preston Lewis: You sort of alluded to designing in sport mechanics and interplay patterns which have decrease cognitive load, proper? In order that the sport continues to be enjoyable and folks keep immersed. So what do you’re feeling like [00:25:00] is lacking from the AR, VR sports activities and health business in the present day?
Cix Liv: Effectively, if I instructed you that I’d be gifting away my secrets and techniques.
Preston Lewis: There we go.
Cix Liv: So I’ve divulged every part.
Preston Lewis: Positive, inform us your first identify, then. Positive. Simply inform us your first identify.
Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, what’s your actual identify?
Preston Lewis: Yeah, what’s your start identify?
Cix Liv: I believe which you could sort of, like, paint the image of what I believe goes to be the long run primarily based off what I’ve stated prior to now. Which is, you already know, low cognitive load, straightforward to grasp, cause to placed on the headset is energetic, you already know, attention-grabbing for folks to look at. After which the most important problem in our house, by far, is working across the limitations of the {hardware}. Proper? As a result of like, oh my God, I can let you know what number of occasions I ideated on some shit, and I turned out as, like, can’t do it. It’s, like, ninety p.c of the shit you construct in our business, falls into “sounds good, doesn’t work.”
Trustworthy to God, it’s like nearly each fucking concept that I’ve, it’s [00:26:00] like, “oh, you already know, I can’t try this due to Fb platform management. I can’t try this as a result of we don’t have decrease physique monitoring. I can’t try this as a result of the hand monitoring wasn’t skilled to work exterior, so it solely works in low gentle environments. I can’t try this as a result of, you already know, the second you set a weight in your hand, it will possibly’t detect your hand anymore. So you may’t quantify the health.” Proper?
One other huge problem with growing for AR, is that you just don’t have entry to the digicam knowledge, it simply principally is available in as a shader. That’s it. And in order that limits a complete bunch of stuff that you are able to do. After which there’s no dying digicam in it, so you may’t simply section gamers out. You recognize, there’s some like laser tag ideas that folks have made with the Quest. They usually create this video and it makes it look so good.
It’s, like, “okay, there’s folks of their workplace they usually’re hiding behind packing containers they usually’re taking pictures at one another, that’s gonna be so fucking wonderful.” Proper? And then you definately go about to do it your self and develop it, like something like that, and also you’re, like, “holy shit, this [00:27:00] is inconceivable”. Like, to begin with, you may’t flip off the guardian for the Quest except you’re in dev mode. Okay? How many individuals are in dev mode. Proper? Like, folks on SideQuest, nobody else. So, you may’t make an AR expertise that has the guardian off. And also you’re gonna what, draw a thirty foot guardian each single time in your workplace? Proper? In order that’s an enormous problem. After which I discussed the difficulty of, like, rendering folks on high of it, after which the truth that there’s no shared SLAM maps?
So, like, if I’ve a SLAM map in my headset, I can’t share it to any headset round me within the Quest ecosystem. You may within the Vive, so the Vive has shared SLAM maps. So, I’ve to go map your complete scene with my headset, after which I can’t share that SLAM map with anyone else. So all these ideas that folks present are very conceptual, as a result of you may’t truly do plenty of this shit.
The factor that’s aged me essentially the most on this [00:28:00] house is the “sounds good, doesn’t work” shit, which seems to be like ninety p.c of something that you just consider.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s attention-grabbing, as a result of often what we hear is “it’s irritating as a result of most individuals don’t have a headset”, you already know? In order that’s already the limitation that we’re coping with. Is that, it’s not that everyone’s acquired a headset, however we are able to’t do these issues. That simply provides onto it, and it simply creates much less causes for folks to get the headset.
And we run into the identical issues. It’s, you already know, we’re caught in, uh, you already know, SteamVR ecosystem. And, you already know, we’re utilizing the Vive Professionals at, uh, Black Field. As a result of now we have to have some kind of solution to do exterior monitoring of arms and palms, with out coping with occlusion from regular hand monitoring for various actions, like squats and deadlifts and overhead press.
And so we’d love to have the ability to use a wi-fi headset. We’re nonetheless caught with the wired headset, as a result of we want to have the ability to have principally the Vive monitoring pucks, or we use the Tundra Trackers. And, you already know, there’s different issues like Kinect-style cameras that we doubtlessly may use. We’ve examined a bunch of these issues, however they’re not quick sufficient, you already know, as a result of we’re doing plenty of punching and slicing and actions, or they cope with occlusion as [00:29:00] effectively.
So, you already know, it seems like every part’s actually shut. Like, man, good hand monitoring and, you already know, if we may simply get that in order that the sphere of view is somewhat bit higher. Full physique monitoring, even when they’re simply sort of like guess somewhat bit round, it may very well be actually attention-grabbing. However, such as you stated, these shared experiences are just about inconceivable with the constraints of this closed down {hardware}, and we’re gonna have all that stuff quickly, you already know? And when are we gonna have all that stuff we wish? It may very well be tomorrow, it may very well be an announcement from any individual tomorrow. It may very well be three years from now and we simply don’t know.
You’ve talked about Beat Saber, like that modding neighborhood. I completely agree, like, with out LIV, with out that modding neighborhood, and all the opposite songs and all the opposite stuff, it wouldn’t be the place it’s in the present day. It’s clearly nonetheless an superior sport, nevertheless it might need been extra of an Audioshield and get some traction, however not plenty of traction prefer it did. They usually’ve taken plenty of that stuff away, particularly talking in regards to the Quest platform, which is the most important platform in the present day, after all.
Preston Lewis: The following query was gonna be describe your good AR, VR sports activities and health expertise. However it appears like it’s staying throughout the sandbox of the {hardware} that’s presently [00:30:00] accessible. Attempting to future solid somewhat bit, however not going loopy, as a result of as you talked about, in case you construct too far forward all you’re gonna have is a bunch of tears and no shipped merchandise.
You talked in regards to the spectator facet of it, which we from day one we thought was tremendous essential in Black Field VR. We all the time say that the good factor about sports activities, constructing a sports activities title, is which you could construct it and it’s infinitely replayable. Versus having to really construct a title that’s sort of this linear storyline that has x quantity of hours and then you definately gotta construct it once more. So, that’s large. We completely agree.
And never just for the enjoyable of the consumer, however we actually do consider that AR, VR spectating modes may very well be wonderful. Proper? We’ve all seen the World of Warcraft slash League of Legends, gigantic spectacles of eSports and stuff like that, so appears like the identical web page there.
In fact offers you a exercise, after all is immersive, makes use of patterns that aren’t an excessive amount of cognitive load. And principally, simply, we have to by some means crack the whip on the {hardware} producers and get them to construct stuff quicker for us, as a result of[00:31:00] that’s what we run into.
Cix Liv: I’d attain out to PICO although. The PICO 4, you already know, the 2 principal focuses they’ve are health and video games, they usually appear to be taking health very significantly. There’s additionally a very attention-grabbing cause for that, by the best way.
In China, they’ve caps on what number of video, how a lot you may play a online game per day. And in case you can persuade the federal government that it’s a health system, you escape of that limitation. In order that’s truly one of many small causes they’re hyper-focused on health, is that if they will persuade the federal government that it’s a health system and never a sport system, they will truly escape of that limitation.
That’s a small factor I found by happening the trail of localizing to China.
Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, man, we’ve discovered a lot from you. I believe we acquired like 1,000,000 notes right here. This’ll positively be our longest podcast ever, up to now. So, uh, actually admire it. I believe to wrap issues up, what’s subsequent for you? What’s subsequent for REK? We’ve, you’ve heard quite a bit about, uh, these upcoming variations of the sport and what it’s not gonna [00:32:00] be, and somewhat little bit of what it’s gonna be, however the place, what’s subsequent for you and, and what are you guys, uh, as much as subsequent?
Cix Liv: I assume you’d need to comply with my Twitter.
Preston Lewis: There we go. Name to motion.
Cix Liv: C I X L I V. Um, I’m keen to reveal every part in regards to the previous of how I acquired to date, however among the stuff that we’re engaged on sooner or later, I’d prefer to preserve beneath wraps till we announce it. We’re positively going to be constructing one thing that works in AR and VR, and we’re positively going to construct a companion utility that permits you to spectate that. After which, hopefully sooner or later, transfer this into tournaments with brackets and leagues and, you already know, all of the stuff that sports activities have.
I believe one of many huge issues I wanna go away folks with, that’s one thing that, could be a light-weight bulb second. Is after we had been doing our checks, we did a pilot, down in, um, Los Angeles. There have been a couple of various things that occurred that made me suppose we’re happening the proper path.
Um, there was a [00:33:00] boyfriend and girlfriend who had been, you already know, the boyfriend was going to go play in opposition to his pal. And earlier than he performed, and he was placing on a headset, his girlfriend came to visit to him, gave him a kiss, and stated, “you higher win”. After which we had a second the place a dad was watching his son, and he was enjoying in opposition to his son’s pal, and he was standing there subsequent to the TV like, you already know, cheering on his son, like, very, very clearly, cheering on his son. And he may see his son and he may see how he was enjoying his pal and all this different stuff. And so these moments had been actually essential.
However the factor that basically gentle bulb this to me, is that if this was a online game that by no means would’ve occurred, as a result of what would’ve occurred is, to begin with, that girlfriend could be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” Like, “we’re at a venue”, like, “why are you going and sitting and enjoying League of Legends?”
Like, you already know, “we’re right here to have enjoyable, what the fuck are you doing?” Proper? As a result of she couldn’t take part in what was taking place, as a result of she’d don’t have any [00:34:00] thought or the context of what the fuck is occurring. Proper? And so that will’ve occurred. After which the identical factor would’ve occurred with the dad and his child. The place if his child came to visit and sat down and performed a online game, regardless that it was, you already know, quote on quote eSports, he’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing? We’re out right here to have enjoyable.” Once more, as a result of he couldn’t take part or perceive what was taking place. And so my huge obsession with this house is that I consider if we nail this, that is larger than your complete XR house, as a result of it breaks out of the house like that Beat Saber video did 5 years in the past.
And that’s why I do that. I consider that if that is nailed, XR sports activities develop into larger than your complete house, as a result of it will possibly get adoption from individuals who aren’t in headsets. And that’s why I’m like, gentle bulb second. That is it. You recognize? Now, whether or not or not the {hardware} is gonna get there in time and, you already know, [00:35:00] all this different fucking bullshit we cope with in our house is one other query. However, you already know, that’s the hope. That’s the dream.
Preston Lewis: Yeah, so, all proper, that’s on a regular basis now we have. Thanks a lot, Cix for being right here with us. I’m positive our viewers actually appreciates it. And for anybody within the viewers, as all the time, we’ll put something within the present notes to get into contact with Cix and to become involved in what he’s doing. Actually admire it. Thanks once more.
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